Interview 19
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Q: Can you tell me the first time you moved to Birmingham?

A: I moved to Birmingham in May 1982 following my marriage to my husband, who was born in India but his parents settled in Birmingham. I’d been to Birmingham numerous times and certainly my early days are of Ladypool road area where my in laws had a business and including most of their family. So I know Ladypool road very well.

Q: And from your accent it feels like you are not actually from UK so where did you first settle in?

A: No my father came over from India in 1950, he came over on his own. And he saved enough money working as a tailor for someone and then brought over my mum and two of his five children. He left three back in India with my grandmother and he brought two over. And then four of us including myself were born in Glasgow.
Q: So in total he had nine children?

A: Nine children in total yes.

Q: And what was his reason to come to Glasgow?

A: Well he was a tailor and he did really well in India – he worked for the British Army in Kashmir and Shimla infact and I believe he just wanted to make a better life for himself and for his family. My grandfather was actually murdered before my Dad was born so my grandmother was widowed from the age of twenty-three and my Dad’s uncle and aunt lived with my grandmother. They had no children so my Dad was seen as their son and so he also looked after them so it was good way of coming here, making some money and he looked after everyone back in India aswell.

Q: And you mentioned you moved to Birmingham after spending some time in Glasgow so were you studying in Glasgow before coming to Birmingham?

A: I lived all my life in Glasgow. I was brought up fairly liberally by my parents but the one thing my father emphasised was that if I didn’t want to be a machine-ist working in his factory then it was important that I got an education so yes I did study, I studied languages. And unfortunately my father wouldn’t let me go abroad as part of my course, I did get offered a job abroad. I understood our traditions, our culture, I knew I was going to have an arranged marriage and I accepted that so I went on and did some secretarial work before joining the civil service. So then when through my aunty, my mum’s sister is married to my husband’s Dad’s cousin brother and they sort of introduced us and that was back in 1981, although we’ve known the families most of our lives. My mother and my mother-in-law were brought up in the same home town in India, they grew up together. My early recollection was of coming down to Birmingham and Coventry every summer holiday. Our father packed us in the car, it was the ‘A’ roads in those days, ten hour car journey, and my very early memory of Ladypool road was running to the shops and buying sweets and getting groceries my now father-in-law’s shop and various other shops.

Q: So can you tell us what was Ladypool Road like when you visited it as a child?

A: Well, I was quite young at the time and what I can remember is that it was quite overwhelming actually, very traditionalist. The women tend to stay at home while the men went out to work. But as children it was very open. We played in the streets, we used to, it was Runcorn Road where we stayed in, so I just remember following my cousins and friends going onto Ladypool road and going from one shop to another. It was very much a community atmosphere. And at that time it was predominantly Hindu-Punjabi.

Q: Right.

A: Predominantly Hindu-Punjabi. I don’t have any recollection of any, as it is now, predominantly a Muslim area, muslim fasion and all that. My early recollection is that, there was very few what you call it, clothes shops as it is now. We go to shop on Ladypool road to get fabric, it’s full of fabric, wonderful fabric, and clothes and jewellery but in those days it was mainly grocery shops, sweet shops, and that’s what my recollection was, and factories. People stitched. They had shops downstairs and they had machines upstairs where mostly the men stitched but I believe the wives of the shop owners also did it and then they contracted out to other housewives as well to do the stitching.

Q: So can you tell me about your father-in-law what kind of shop did he have on Ladypool road?

A: He had a grocery shop, a grocery shop at the front and I believe he had machines upstairs and he had some guys who stitched anoraks and I believe that was similar to a lot of the shop owners on Ladypool road at that time. And I’m aware that my mother-in-law did go into help as did all the children. My husband in particular, he has many memories of working in the shop straight after school.

Q: So was it a normal thing to be part of the family business?

A: Yes. Yes. Absolutely. It was a family business. Yes and even the machine-ists were kind of related in some way. I do recall especially from my own family, and I know my father-in-law was very similar being one of the first to come over and setting up and then sponsoring others to come over as well. My father did that, he sponsored numerous people. I remember I was born in a two bedroom tenement flat and we all lived there and we always had visitors and these were always like, now I know was to be my cousins who came over from India, my father sponsored them. And equally my father-in-law did the same in Birmingham. He was well established in Birmingham so he did the same. And they all started off in his shop on Ladypool road.

Q: What changes have you seen? You mentioned there were first grocery shops and now there are more fabric shops. What other changes have you seen in terms of its environment and the range of shops perhaps?

A: Well certainly I would say there are more food shops, restaurants, it’s more lively, it’s more of a cultural place now where everybody can come and shop and then they eat, so they can make a whole day of it. Basically do the shopping and go home. Before it was I suppose people just came, bought the groceries and went off again. But people make it a day of it now I think. Like Sparkhill in general, Sparkbrook. That’s what you do. If you want to shop, you tend to go around all the shops and then finish off by having some food and then go home.

Q: You mentioned also your husband at young age going into his father’s shop and helping out, did he continue doing that, did he go into the business of making clothes and did you follow? How did that develop?

A: No he actually went on to university as did his younger brother as well and they studied and they went on to make their own professions, going into other professions. But his two elder brothers stayed with the business. Once the manufacturing picked up then they moved out of Ladypool road, sold the grocery shop and they bought particular, specific premises where they developed their manufacturing business, stitching, tailoring anoraks, and like that. So yeah I believe it was Winson Green they moved to then. After Winson Green they moved to the city centre on Bromsgrove street, to much larger premises.

Q: How would you describe Ladypool road, do you think it’s a male dominated area now, or has it been since you were a child, or have things changed a little?

A: It certainly was male dominated in the past but my perception now is that whilst the male are in charge they perhaps the most of the say in the business, you’ll have more female employees. You can see them working together actually. Jewellery shops, there are a lot of females there. But you always get men in there as well who I would say have the main say in things. But no there’s definitely a big change. Women have more power. They have certainly been empowered to drive these businesses. You know the type of businesses that are there it’s all about communication, and you know reaching out to your clientele. And the only way you can do that in selling clothes and jewellery is to actually have a passion for it. I think that’s what it is, you have to have a passion for that type of thing. I mean you can go there and the fabrics are overwhelming, they really are, for me that is, I love fabric, I love colour and I love clothes and they certainly, Ladypool Road my favourite as opposed to Stratford road, I prefer to go to Ladypool road.

Q: Why is that?

A: I don’t know, I got to know the people there. They, they. You can have a banter with them, they know you, you know, you can bargain with them and I trust them. I trust them aswell you know, they’re not going to rip me off or anything. Whereas Stratford Road is huge and you know you can stroll from one shop to another and still not find what you want and you also rely on people to recommend things, what’s the fashion, etc. etc. I don’t buy a lot from here, it’s only because I buy all my fabrics, all my outfits from India but I do for my daughter when she needs something quite quickly then I know where to go on Ladypool road, and it’s generally Ladypool road.

Q: You mentioned also that there women who used to help out in the shops, stitching and machinery work so do you think they were not allowed to be at the counter like you would see some women now on Ladypool road? And what do you think there contribution has been in those times in the fifties, sixties, seventies - what was there contribution?

A: I don’t think it was the case of them not being allowed, I believe it was the case that women were needed at home to run the house, the home, to see the children off to school, pack their lunches and then come and see their partners, their husbands in the shop, bring their lunch and I believe they also made lunch for some of the workers as well. A lot of these workers, certainly from my Dad’s days is that they were men who came over from India without their families. So they tended to be men on their own. And I think women, like my mother-in-law and my mother-in-law’s sister, who I believe you know of, did things like that, make her husband’s lunch and made lunch for the other employers, employees as well. They did help out in the shop, as and when, but this is where the children came in, I think after school the children came in and they did their bit. And the women also took over I believe when the men had to go to the cash’n carry to purchase things.

Q: And do you recall any memory of your mother-in-law helping out and what was her kind of daily life when you used to go her in the summer holidays and saw her working, what was that like?

A: Well to be quite honest I didn’t really pay much attention to that aspect of it. I just played with the kids, I was very young at the time. I just remember her being at home mainly, I wasn’t aware of her going to the shop at that time. I suppose it was because my mum was there as well and they would just want to have a natter and catch up and do a bit of shopping. But the men did work very long hours. And obviously the women had to make the evening meal as well, so they had to be there for the evening meal.

Q: So they predominantly they were in the background, I suppose like the pillar of the family.
A: Yes I would say so. A lot of the daughters as well helped out. They would come to the shop as well so they had a contribution as well, you know they would help out. There was always something nice about being behind the counter and serving people I think. I certainly, with my recollection in Glasgow. My father had a manufacturing side, he was a tailor and had his own factory but he also had two shops, he had menswear shops. And I used to like being one of the assistants and serving behind the counter.

Q: Did that make you feel important?

A: It did yes. My father wasn’t there in the shops obviously he ran the factory side so there was a manageress there and I worked with the manageress. And yes she would give me responsibility of measuring inside legs and things like that so I learnt a lot, I learnt a lot and I learnt about the fashion as well and, which was important, that’s how my father was successful and seeing what sells in particular. I don’t know if you recall the Base City Rollers, they were an infamous Scottish group who wore tartan and girls in particular were screaming out for tartan on their shirts and on their trousers, and so that’s what my Dad did and made a big success of it.

Q: And tell us about the attitude of people on Ladypool road. You remember of it when you were younger, you were playing and I’m assuming you felt quite safe and comfortable, how does that now compare to this day and age?

A: Well the one big thing, and I don’t think it’s restricted to just Ladypool road is that you won’t find many kids playing on the street and doors open and people chatting and we are all more aware of our environment and all the fancers of talking to strangers and what not. So you don’t see that much now, in fact I don’t see that many children wondering about anymore, I suppose that kind of freedom has been taken away. Because I used to recall just playing all the time on the streets mainly not in the house but in the streets and wondering from house to house and across the road from Runcorn road to Ladypool road, ice cream van coming and wanting an ice cream. There was a big community so everybody knew one another in those days. I don’t know many of my community Hindu Punjabi remain on Runcorn road. Certainly its changed, culturally its changed as I said it was primarily Hindu-Punjabi, Sikh Punjabi now it’s predominantly muslim so there is certainly an absence of children in the streets I would say.

Q: Why do you think that’s changed? Why has the community changed?

A: I think life in general has changed in that respect. I don’t think you can just put it down to the community, is it safe now for children to play now in the streets. Everybody is more aware, more conscious. I would imagine people tend to keep more to themselves now.

Q: So how did you adapt from going to place like from Glasgow into a place like Birmingham and particularly that area? Can you give me some kind of example of your achievements, your hardships?

A: Yes as I said I was brought up fairly liberally but still respected my culture and my traditions and I did have an arranged marriage but I did have a cultural shock when I moved down. I married into a very traditional Indian family. It was the joint family I moved down to so there were three brothers and their families and two young sisters, unmarried sisters, and mother and father-in-law in the one house. So there was a lot to come to terms with as well as living with a new person. And I completely different way of life. Completely different. They were very traditional down here. I felt that I had lost my identity. And I struggled. I struggled for a very long time. Fortunately because we were such a large family in the one house, my husband was in an agreement to buying our own house so we moved out of the joint family and we had three children of our own. When I had my first son back in 1984, I worked for the civil service at the time unfortunately I couldn’t work part time, there was no part-time, no job share so I gave up my job to run a shop. I ran a shop in Perry Barr, a video shop and I brought up my three children in that shop. So yes it was a hard struggle but again in the shop it was primarily, I would say in a working class area, primarily asians, and black afro-carribean. I just felt I had lost my identity completely. Being married into a traditional indian family I was always referred to as someone’s wife or someone’s daughter-in-law, nobody knew me by my name. I was very rarely called by my name. I had to cover my head all the time with my dupatta and I had to touch my in-laws’ toes out of respect, most mornings. That went on for about a year until I slowly dropped the dupatta and slowly the other women in the family, the three other daughter-in-laws started doing the same. And then of course when I moved out with my husband then slowly the others moved out as well so there were a lot of changes that came about but I felt I had to make that move for my own sanity and to make my marriage work as well.

Q: Were you not seen as a rebel or someone who had a bad influence on the rest of the family, especially the daughter-in-laws?

A: Well to be quite honest I don’t really know about that. I felt it. I did feel it, I felt a lot of guilt. Fortunately my husband was very supportive, he wanted this as well because we were both educated people, which is a big difference between the other daughter-in-laws in the family and when we had our children we wanted to give them the best we could not only education but our support. Because I know from particularly our family they were so involved in their own businesses, my eldest brother-in-law had two shops on Soho road in Handsworth, so I think it was a case of their children going to private schools to compensate for them giving the children the support that my husband and I wanted to give to our children so that was a big difference, and I was kind of looked on as a bit of rebel or someone who did something entirely different. But I have absolutely no regrets what so ever. I have the most wonderful children and that’s my biggest achievement.

Q: You mentioned you had children and you were running a shop as well.

A: Yes we had a video shop because I had to give up my job as a civil servant my husband bought me a shop. My son was 7 months old when I took on that shop so I’d look after him and this shop. And in the evening, it was long hours, so in the evening my husband was a teacher at that time, he did his job and he came in at six o’clock he took over at six o’clock and I went home and I looked after my son until the next morning. I did this six days a week, sorry, five days a week, I didn’t do Saturdays, my husband did, had the shop on the Saturday. And then I had two more children. And it was when I had my second son I just felt that with all the changes that had been happening in my life I felt I had to do something for myself. And I also felt that I was nobody. My father had so much, so many aspirations for me. He always wanted me to be a lawyer and I was a bit of a rebel when I was a youngster as well and I didn’t do what he said, and that’s my biggest regret. So in 1987 my son was a few months old I went to it was called Birmingham Polytechnic at the time and I started a part-time law degree. It took me five years. My daughter Manika was born in my third year at university. So I was at the shop from morning till evening and my husband came home, he came to the shop at about 5.30pm and my class started at six. So I used to bomb down to the university, 6-9 about twice a week for five years, and I got my honours degree in law.

Q: So what are you most proud of?

A: Well I am most proud of my children. I really am. They’re a credit to us, they really are. It just makes it seem so worthwhile giving them the time. I know I gave up my job when my eldest son was a baby to take on this shop and I regretted it for a few years until I started my law degree because again I felt I was a nobody. In doing my degree I also wanted to show my in-laws I was as good as their son. I wanted to get my identity back. But at the same time my priority was my children so they’re my greatest priority, my greatest achievement. And then after that it was studying law. And of course I dodn’t go on to qualify because the children were my priority, continued with the shop for seven years and then by that time my husband had enough of me complaining about being stuck in a shop, day in, day out, being brain dead, so we agreed to sell it and I went back to the civil service. I was very fortunate I got reinstated. I worked part-time to work around the children, and in year 2000 I decided that the children were old enough now and it was time to started developing my career. And I was very fortunate to be in the right place at the right time, I moved to the crown prosecution service and I got my training contract and I qualified as a lawyer in 2004.

Q: What do you think you’d like to see more of in terms of the attitude of the people for women?

A: In the asian culture, well, certainly the community I come from children are more positive, they’re more empowered, they’re more in control of their lives, certainly in my community and families. But I am aware that there are still some women who don’t get the opportunity to go on to study, to go into further education but I think it changes and totally changed now. You only have to see the universities and colleges these days, great mixture and women are more empowered especially nowadays with equal opportunities and most big employers have to employ people from ethnic minorities so there’s a big drive to employ. And certainly to see women achieve better to get better positions in businesses and we’re seeing it now. It’s completely different from what twenty-thirty years ago where they just had the menial jobs or the subservient jobs. You will see them more and more now being managers and owning their own businesses as well.

Q: And on Ladypool road we are seeing more women, standing at the counter, even owning some of the shops, do you think that in the last five years they have contributed to the success because now Ladypool road is known as one of the most popular commercial asian streets part of the Balti triangle, do you think they have contributed enough or do you think they can do more?

A: There’s certainly a greater presence of women in the fabric shops and in the jewellery shops, shoe shops but not so much in the restaurant business, you won’t see them in the restaurant business which is flourishing, like you say it’s part of the Balti Triangle. You don’t tend to see women, not even serving, that’s my observation. But yes certainly in the shops which is good because most of the customers are asian women aren’t they, and they want to speak to a woman as opposed to a man or some of them do. So yes they’re a valuable contribution and they know about fashion as well.

Q: So finally what message would you give to girls and women who may have a dream that they want to follow but there are certain challenges or obstacles in their personal circumstance or it might be the attitude of people that they are within, what message would you give them?

A: I would say never give up. Never give up on your dream. It’s out there. Life is full of obstacles, life is full of challenges but if you’re strong enough you can overcome them, you can achieve anything. Hey look at me I qualified when I was 47 and so anybody can do it and you know I went on, I was used by the crown prosecution service to forefront their, it was a special initiative they had to grow their own lawyers saying that they would sponsor them to do their A Levels, to do their degrees, to go on to qualify as lawyers and I ticked all their boxes because I studied part-time, I studied whilst I was having my children and I was a woman, and I was Asian, so I ticked all the boxes which was good I suppose propaganda for the government as well to say that they were promoting women and that women can achieve great things they just need the drive and determination to do so. Through what I did I had the opportunity of going down to Downing Street and give a speech in front of ministers and appear on the CPS brochure, hey if anybody can do it, if I can do it then anybody can do it. That’s the message I give.

Q: And one last final thing, if there was a memory of Ladypool road that you still hang on to is there a memory you can share with us?

A: Yes from a very young age as I said just running about in the street and all the children being happy, you know boys and girls and just generally the whole family atmosphere, everybody in it together, everybody working together, everybody helping each other. It was just a great community spirit. And that’s something I never saw in Glasgow.

Q: Thank You.

A: You’re welcome.

Sonia Sabri Company, 202 Moseley Street, Birmingham B12 0RT UK